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BlatantAnomaly
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Posted: Tue Sep 16, 2008 2:00 pm |
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Joined: Sun Oct 08, 2006 7:13 pmPosts: 638Location: Pembroke Pines, Florida, US
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Ron Paul and Ralph Nader were the ones that lumped themselves together in what I posted. That was something that those 4 third-party candidates all agreed on.
My main problem is that so few are willing to challenge the status quo. It seems that they get overwhelmed and just vote red or blue or don't vote at all. Obama has made promises to special interest groups in order to raise the amount of money needed in order to run his campaign. That's the way the game is played, but that doesn't excuse him at all.
What makes you think future generations will be better able to fight against the status quo?
Quote: They tell us, sir, that we are weak; unable to cope with so formidable an adversary. But when shall we be stronger? Will it be the next week, or the next year? Will it be when we are totally disarmed, and when a British guard shall be stationed in every house? Shall we gather strength by irresolution and inaction? Shall we acquire the means of effectual resistance by lying supinely on our backs and hugging the delusive phantom of hope, until our enemies shall have bound us hand and foot? Sir, we are not weak if we make a proper use of those means which the God of nature hath placed in our power. The millions of people, armed in the holy cause of liberty, and in such a country as that which we possess, are invincible by any force which our enemy can send against us. Besides, sir, we shall not fight our battles alone. There is a just God who presides over the destinies of nations, and who will raise up friends to fight our battles for us. The battle, sir, is not to the strong alone; it is to the vigilant, the active, the brave. Besides, sir, we have no election. If we were base enough to desire it, it is now too late to retire from the contest. There is no retreat but in submission and slavery! Our chains are forged! Their clanking may be heard on the plains of Boston! The war is inevitable--and let it come! I repeat it, sir, let it come.
It is in vain, sir, to extenuate the matter. Gentlemen may cry, Peace, Peace-- but there is no peace. The war is actually begun! The next gale that sweeps from the north will bring to our ears the clash of resounding arms! Our brethren are already in the field! Why stand we here idle? What is it that gentlemen wish? What would they have? Is life so dear, or peace so sweet, as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it, Almighty God! I know not what course others may take; but as for me, give me liberty or give me death!
A bit excessive for the current discussion, maybe, but not much.
_________________ I drop select crowd-surfers ...on purpose. |
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BlatantAnomaly
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Posted: Tue Sep 16, 2008 2:38 pm |
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Joined: Sun Oct 08, 2006 7:13 pmPosts: 638Location: Pembroke Pines, Florida, US
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Quote: The argument that the two parties should represent opposed ideals and policies, one, perhaps of the Right and the other of the Left, is a foolish idea acceptable only to the doctrinaire and academic thinkers. Instead, the two parties should be almost identical, so that the American people can "throw the rascals out" at any election without leading to any profound or extensive shifts in policy. Quote: Politicians are the only people in the world who create problems and then campaign against them.
Have you ever wondered why, if both the Democrats and the Republicans are against deficits, we have deficits?
Have you ever wondered why, if all the politicians are against inflation and high taxes, we have inflation and high taxes?
You and I don’t propose a federal budget. The President does.
You and I don’t have the Constitutional authority to vote on appropriations. The House of Representatives does.
You and I don’t write the tax code, Congress does.
You and I don’t set fiscal policy, Congress does.
You and I don’t control monetary policy, the Federal Reserve Bank does.
One hundred senators, 435 Congressmen, one President, and nine Supreme Court justices! 545 human beings out of the 300 million are directly, legally, morally, and individually responsible for the domestic problems that plague this country.
I excluded the members of the Federal Reserve Board because that problem was created by the Congress. In 1913, Congress delegated its Constitutional duty to provide a sound currency to a federally chartered, but private, central bank.
I excluded all the special interests and lobbyists for a sound reason. They have no legal authority. They have no ability to coerce a Senator, a Congressman, or a President to do one cotton-picking thing. I don’t care if they offer a politician $1 million dollars in cash. The politician has the power to accept or reject it. No matter what the lobbyist promises, it is the legislator’s responsibility to determine how he votes.
Those 545 human beings spend much of their energy convincing you that what they did is not their fault. They cooperate in this common con regardless of party.
What separates a politician from a normal human being is an excessive amount of gall. No normal human being would have the gall of a Speaker, who stood up and criticized the President for creating deficits. The President can only propose a budget. He cannot force the Congress to accept it.
The Constitution, which is the supreme law of the land, gives sole responsibility to the House of Representatives for originating and approving appropriations and taxes. Who is the speaker of the House? She or He is the leader of the majority party. The speaker and fellow House members, not the President, can approve any budget they want. If the president vetoes it, they can pass it over his veto if they agree to.
It seems inconceivable to me that a nation of 300 million can not replace 545 people who stand convicted – by present facts – of incompetence and irresponsible. I can’t think of a single domestic problem that is not traceable directly to those 545 people. When you fully grasp the plain truth that 545 people exercise the power of the federal government, then it must follow that what exists is what they want to exist.
If the tax code is unfair, it’s because they want it unfair.
If the budget is in the red, it’s because they want it in the red.
If the Marines are in IRAQ, it’s because they want them in IRAQ.
If they do not receive social security but are on an elite retirement plan not available to the people, it’s because they want it that way. There are no insoluble government problems.
Do not let these 545 people shift the blame to bureaucrats, whom they hire and whose jobs they can abolish; to lobbyists, whose gifts and advice they can reject; to regulators, to whom they give the power to regulate and from whom they can take this power. Above all, do not let them con you into the belief that there exists disembodied mystical forces like ‘the economy,’ ‘inflation,’ or ‘politics’ that prevent them from doing what they take an oath to do.
Those 545 people, and no one else; and they alone, are responsible.
They, and they alone, have the power.
They, and they alone, should be held accountable by the people who are their bosses provided the voters have the gumption to manage their own employees.
We should vote all of them out of office and clean up their mess!
_________________ I drop select crowd-surfers ...on purpose. |
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peace/alison
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Posted: Tue Sep 16, 2008 2:55 pm |
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Joined: Fri Jun 20, 2008 9:09 amPosts: 125Location: Gainesville
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Danny Dickhead wrote: I just think that maybe the blue crooks could do a better job for the next few years than the red crooks. Honestly, I know things won't magically get better . . . but I'm gonna vote anyway. Why the hell would I vote for McCain? You have to take steps to create an environment more conducive to alternative viewpoints.
I don't want Roe v. Wade overturned, I don't want creationism taught in public schools, I want kids to be educated about sexually transmitted diseases and birth control, and I want a foreign policy that at least gives lip service to the idea of a global community, not unilateral American dominance.
I just think of choosing a President as choosing the national motto for four years at a time.
McCain/Palin: Oil, babies, guns, and Jesus! Obama/Biden: Stop being a dick, America.
can I get a 'fuckin' a right!' please?
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BlatantAnomaly
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Posted: Tue Sep 16, 2008 3:28 pm |
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Joined: Sun Oct 08, 2006 7:13 pmPosts: 638Location: Pembroke Pines, Florida, US
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I just found an interesting idea. Since so many people are only voting McCain/Obama to try to keep the other out of office, if people with opposing views were to pair up and make a pact to note vote for either of the two main candidates and instead each chose a third-party candidate that did actually agree with their views to vote for, third-party candidates would get a lot more attention, those people could vote their conscience, and those two voters would do something significantly more important than just negate each other. I think it's a great idea. www.VotePact.org
_________________ I drop select crowd-surfers ...on purpose. |
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Danny Dickhead
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Posted: Tue Sep 16, 2008 3:56 pm |
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Joined: Wed Aug 08, 2007 12:15 pmPosts: 791Location: Shit-cago
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Now that's an interesting idea. I'd much rather vote for a socialist libertarian, or something of the sort. I want a candidate to talk about drugs, but that's a no-no. I want someone who isn't afraid to stand up to high-and-mighty religious types, but that won't happen. Obama isn't my ideal candidate, certainly not by any stretch of the imagination. But beyond the appointment of Supreme Court Justices, the reason I think voting for him would be good for the country is primarily metaphysical.
But I just get frustrated when there are good ideas like that Vote Pact thing, because there's such a small amount of people who are actually concerned about the real nature of politics, and an even smaller amount who would go for something like that. So it's a symbolic gesture.
Think about the American electorate. On second thought, don't, because they are horrible and have viciously short attention spans and are primarily selfish bungtwats.
I mean, fuck. I don't see any solutions. I really don't.
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GiveBlood
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Posted: Tue Sep 16, 2008 10:54 pm |
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Joined: Sat Jun 16, 2007 12:52 pmPosts: 2441Location: Gainesville, finally
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sawtooth wrote: i generally try to vote with my wallet. sadly that would point me in mccain's direction. and that's a very scary thing. if i manage to vote, it would be for ron paul.
If everyone in the US voted with their wallets, Obama would win in a landslide. I guess sawtooth is advertising that fact that he apparently makes more than $111,000 a year. Even the next bracket up would only be saving $400 a year under McCain's tax plan, a shitty savings for all the cuts in programs and other bullshit Republican agendas typically result in.
because of the way this board shrinks images to fit, this graphic looks a LOT better if you click on it to see it fullsize.
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sawtooth
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Posted: Wed Sep 17, 2008 7:49 am |
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| Joined: Tue Oct 23, 2007 1:55 pmPosts: 1315Location: FEST Board Troll
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GiveBlood wrote: sawtooth wrote: i generally try to vote with my wallet. sadly that would point me in mccain's direction. and that's a very scary thing. if i manage to vote, it would be for ron paul.
If everyone in the US voted with their wallets, Obama would win in a landslide. I guess sawtooth is advertising that fact that he apparently makes more than $111,000 a year. Even the next bracket up would only be saving $400 a year under McCain's tax plan, a shitty savings for all the cuts in programs and other bullshit Republican agendas typically result in.
nah, i'm not advertising shit. generally a rePUBElican is a bit easier on the wallet than a democrap. that's all i'm advertising. i don't like where my tax dollars are going under either administration.
sadly, i think the american people have been trained to only vote for a republican or democrat...i think they've been trained to vote on wedge issues...and kind of assimilate with the rest of the beliefts of the party that agrees most with their views on wedge issues.
bottom line: most americans are too fat and lazy to really get whats going on.
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Terry
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Posted: Wed Sep 17, 2008 7:55 am |
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Joined: Sun May 20, 2007 5:03 pmPosts: 129Location: Cardiff, UK
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sawtooth wrote: bottom line: most americans are too fat and lazy to really get whats going on.
dude, I didn't realise you were British but generally, as a rule, we don't talk like this on open forums. OK, cool?
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sawtooth
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Posted: Wed Sep 17, 2008 8:11 am |
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| Joined: Tue Oct 23, 2007 1:55 pmPosts: 1315Location: FEST Board Troll
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Terry wrote: sawtooth wrote: bottom line: most americans are too fat and lazy to really get whats going on. dude, I didn't realise you were British but generally, as a rule, we don't talk like this on open forums. OK, cool? 
haha, not british, but would love to go over there sometime.
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GiveBlood
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Posted: Wed Sep 17, 2008 8:14 am |
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Joined: Sat Jun 16, 2007 12:52 pmPosts: 2441Location: Gainesville, finally
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sawtooth wrote: generally a rePUBElican is a bit easier on the wallet than a democrap.
if you paid attention, that is not the case this year.
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sawtooth
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Posted: Wed Sep 17, 2008 10:29 am |
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| Joined: Tue Oct 23, 2007 1:55 pmPosts: 1315Location: FEST Board Troll
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GiveBlood wrote: sawtooth wrote: generally a rePUBElican is a bit easier on the wallet than a democrap. if you paid attention, that is not the case this year.
yeah, but just in general yo.
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grin&toxic_greg
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Posted: Sat Sep 20, 2008 12:23 pm |
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| Joined: Mon Jun 30, 2008 10:05 amPosts: 106Location: Longwood (Orlando)
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i know BlatantAnomaly has touched upon Ron Paul in this thread but I can't help but wonder what the discussion would be amongst us on the board and the nation in general if it was Ron Paul as the republican ticket against Obama as the democrat nominee.
I could still see alot of people who are party loyalists as well as the hollywood liberal left still trying to say that obama is a much bigger breathe of fresh air than that of Dr. Ron Paul. I know my mom's friend who is a big Hillary fan sees the (R) next to Paul's name and doesn't even care to know what he's about because to him he's another old kook from the right wing... atleast that's what he is to her.
it's not a knock on punx or any one person in particular but I just think it'd be quite amusing to sit back and hear the same people that cry that government is too big and incorporate the word anarchy into every conversation at the punk show but show their obvious leftist favoritism when they defend obama's quasi-socialist policies against Paul's classic libertarian conservatism (which would be the closest any western democracy got towards anarchy*)
*this doesn't mean chaos because guess what folks - those riots you see where people turn over flame-ingulfed automobiles and looted storefront after basketball games that get labeled as "it's anarchy out there!" is NOT anarchy. it's a shame the term has such negative condintations... ok i'm going to go listen to Crass now and jack off to Tom Gabel's words
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GiveBlood
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Posted: Sat Sep 20, 2008 2:26 pm |
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Joined: Sat Jun 16, 2007 12:52 pmPosts: 2441Location: Gainesville, finally
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I know the difference between anarchism and chaos, and I know that Obama is not going to solve all of the US's problems. But he does have a lot of good plans and policies that WILL help America.
You're also crazy if you think sustainable anarchism has a snowball's chance in hell to work in a country with 300,000,000 people.
And you're even crazier if you think Ron Paul style libertarianism would give you anything resembling the anarchism that you want.
Extremism never works, systems need to be balanced and flexible. Note that balance is not the same as moderation, which is often just plain ineffective. I believe in taking the few good ideas that anarchism has, the good ideas that socialism has, and the good ideas that exist in a REGULATED but mostly free market, and tryin gto work with those ideas in the existing system. Because if you're not working within the system, you better be ready to smash it, and maybe die in the process.
Ron Paul has some points that I do like, but I don't understand why so many people seem willing to overlook his other totally nutjob stances.
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grin&toxic_greg
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Posted: Sat Sep 20, 2008 3:37 pm |
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| Joined: Mon Jun 30, 2008 10:05 amPosts: 106Location: Longwood (Orlando)
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GiveBlood wrote: I know the difference between anarchism and chaos, and I know that Obama is not going to solve all of the US's problems. But he does have a lot of good plans and policies that WILL help America.
You're also crazy if you think sustainable anarchism has a snowball's chance in hell to work in a country with 300,000,000 people.
And you're even crazier if you think Ron Paul style libertarianism would give you anything resembling the anarchism that you want.
Extremism never works, systems need to be balanced and flexible. Note that balance is not the same as moderation, which is often just plain ineffective. I believe in taking the few good ideas that anarchism has, the good ideas that socialism has, and the good ideas that exist in a REGULATED but mostly free market, and tryin gto work with those ideas in the existing system. Because if you're not working within the system, you better be ready to smash it, and maybe die in the process.
Ron Paul has some points that I do like, but I don't understand why so many people seem willing to overlook his other totally nutjob stances.
i'll come out and admit it - i was bitching about not having people to debate the issues with, i just didn't come out and say it. Phillip knows I've mentioned what an encylopedia and nice guy he is so I'd love to pick your brain any day of the week and have friendly debates and differences of opinon. that being said:
much like you are well read enough to know a clear difference between anarchy and chaos you make some equally strongs points and effectively communicate your stances better than most, and way better than myself at most times.
but where i have to defend myself is to elaborate on the fact that i do not want anarchy (i tried to show my willingness to joke about it with my Tom Gabel and Crass joke at the end) but that i am just merely intrigued by the possibilites that would pop up given the obviously now-extinct idea of Ron Paul and Obama having the party ticket in the 2008 election.
while maybe i should have left it at just stating the fact that I am intrigued by both Paul and Obama I had to inevitabley add my two cents that I would now be adding in such a reply as this.
i'll take great pleasure in someone taking the time to enlighten me on the great ideas that Socialism offers America because that is not a theory I have ever agreed with to a great extent. To hear it in someone's own words may give me a new perspective. When I used the term quasi-socialist for Obama I didn't mean to spit on the idea of socialism but rather just the certain policies of Obama I disagree with, that happen to be quasi-social in my understanding.
just like it seems that there could possibly be SOME ASPECTS of socialism for me to learn, i 100% completely agree with you that extremism is bad because of the very reason that it goes overboard and doesn't allow for independent-thinking when taking aspects from several ideologies (i.e. - libertarianism, socialism, free market, and others such as fair tax i presume). so I couldn't agree with you more on that statement.
as far as my drinking of the Ron Paul Kool-Aid and his "nutjob" stances I don't see ideas such as abolishing the IRS and Dept. of Education as nutjob because from what I've read the ideas may be considered a huge leap and risky but in alot of people's minds carries serious weight for doing such a thing as getting rid of those two historically waste of institutions and even though it'll sound like a broken record of Ron Paul talking points I have to say that Ron Paul "had me at hello" when he ran on a platform of previously mentioned fighting of government waste, all while combining it with my favorite issue and ron paul talking point - respecting American citizen's freedom and staying out of their lives.
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GiveBlood
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Posted: Sat Sep 20, 2008 4:15 pm |
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Joined: Sat Jun 16, 2007 12:52 pmPosts: 2441Location: Gainesville, finally
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Ron Paul's plan on eliminating the IRS is all smoke and mirrors, because if you look closely, he wants to replace it with something just as complicated and bureaucratic. The "fair tax" based ona sales tax with it's system of rebates based on living expenses would be incredibly complicated and expensive to calculate and administer. Maybe it could get by with a smaller staff than the IRS, but probably not. One of the big appeals of the plan is its simplicity, but the plan as it is now is FAR too simplistic, in order for it to actually work it would need to be much more complicated.
The only way I would support a "fair tax" is if used a something like a graduated sales tax, whereby diffeent items would have a higher percentage of sales tax as they got more expensive. So a shirt that cost $15 at the store would maybe only have 5% sales tax, but a shirt that cost $100 would have a 10% sales tax. As you can see, this would require a huge system for determining different categories of goods and the appropriate tax brackets for each category... requiring a LOT of paperwork for retailers, and a large bureaucracy.
I actually think a luxury tax is a great idea, but not for replacing the income tax. If it were just to supplement the income tax, then it could be a lot simpler, and less widespread.
as for abolishing the Department of Education... great idea, as long as you are also OK with an incredibly segregated and unequal system of education, which would basically create a new caste system of opportunities.
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